View source for Control - Question and Answer Period (7ACC 540730)

'''Series:''' 7th Advanced Clinical Course (7ACC)

'''Date:''' 30 July 1954

'''Speaker:''' L. Ron Hubbard

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Now going to have a seminar here on this subject of—not time, you understand, but motionlessness. I want to know what you want to know about this subject, get you thinking a little bit about it. Don't sit there motionless and all keyed-in by it.

Yes, Warren?

Male voice: Does the process where you spot spots in the room, move your body into it and fix it there and then unfix it, have anything to do with this?

Yes, it does. You are trying to make the thetan aware of the fact that he is moving a symbol which has mass, meaning and mobility—in other words, a body.

Male voice: Would it—would that process be good for knocking some of the stuff out of this before you use the Straightwire for it?

Yes, sir.

Female voice: When you use that Straightwire of "Find a time when you were motionless," bring up the incident, what do you do with the incident, then?

You ask for another incident. Let them stack. To hell with them.

It's a vicious process, vicious. You know what to do with it, you shouldn't be asking me such a question. You ought to make him get a duplicate of it, perfect duplicate if it gets too rough for him. Increases his havingness. It usually makes him feel fairly cheerful before he caves in completely on it.

A perfect duplicate, by the way, could be—let me give you a little drill of that, just as an answer to that. Let's take our good friend, this jug here, thermos jug. All right.

You take a look at that thermos jug. Take a good look at it. Just look at it, now. All right.

Now say you've supplanted the original with your mock-up.

Got that?

Take a look at that microphone over there and say you've supplanted the original with your mock-up.

Take the front of the room. Now say you've supplanted the original with your mock-up. What happens as you do that? You've taken over ownership of the environment, is what you're doing. Well, that's not—actually, not As-isness. See, it's not actually As-isness. All right.

What happened when you did that? Were you able to do that successfully?

As an individual drills on this, he shortly says, "Well, I've supplanted the whole universe with my mock-ups."

Now, making a perfect duplicate is different than this. The perfect duplicate has to exist in the same time, same space, with the same mass and same energy as the original. You've got two things there, you see, with a perfect duplicate, which is different than taking over—you get a different phenomenon when you do this. Curious, that there's just this little thing.

Go ahead, some more questions.

Female voice: When you get an incident—you've asked for an incident when he was motionless, you get the incident…

Oh! Was that the technique? Now, just a minute!

Female voice: No, no.

Just a minute. What are you going to do, kill this preclear? Now, what's the command?

Female voice: "Find a time when you were motionless. " Did I duplicate it?

"Can you recall some times when you were motionless."

Female voice: Oh.

Remember, I said it was a Straightwire process, not "Can you get an incident." He can get an incident all right, whap!

Female voice: All right. But you have this thing, there's a heavy charge on it. You ask him to duplicate it, it doesn't duplicate. Do you run it as an incident?

What do you mean, it doesn't duplicate? No, you don't run it as an incident, never. You just ask him for some more.

Remember, you can ask him for several things here. You can ask him for times when he was in motion. You can ask him for times when he was motionless. You can ask him for times of change and so forth. He will give you, quite willy-nilly, times when he was trying to prevent a change, but you can ask him for that, too, but you better not. Because that is Not-isness, a prevention of change. You see that?

Now, what do you do with that incident? You just ask him for some more.

Female voice: Let it pile up.

They won't pile up, necessarily. You're asking him Straightwire. You see him sitting there chewing on large masses of energy, why, tell him to chew it carefully and get another incident.

You see, in the first place, you cannot hurt a thetan by asking for times when he was motionless, How could you possibly hurt a thetan by asking him for times when he was motionless?

Female voice: He's motionless all the time, anyhow!

That's right!

Male voice: Processing towards the truth, you…

And you're processing straight toward the truth, so how can you get into trouble?

Female voice: I tried to tell an auditor that about seven months ago and he went into a—practically a fit. I must have some horrible thing that I had to be motionless and let's process this out of me, And I was perfectly happy with it!

[laughs] Now, the funny part of it is, the thetan enjoys very much moving a mock-up around, but he does not enjoy himself moving around with the mock-up.

Male voice: Will that work on a very low-toned preclear who is tied down with a lower mockery of motionlessness?

Well, remember, I told you 8-C Opening Procedure and Opening Procedure by Duplication till this boy could at least find the walls. I said this is a heavy process.

Male voice: Yeah.

And you should use that, you see, always.

And by the way, a person who has a psychosomatic illness—a person who has a psychosomatic illness of any kind, a person who is neurotic about anything, a person who is psychotic, we only have one process for them. Remember, that psychosomatic ill includes in there.

I've watched an auditor flounder around with a case and let the case hit him endlessly when this case actually had a tremendous immobility, tremendously—well, an immobility of the psychosomatic nature which was huge, see? The auditor just went on running this and running that and running something else and so on, although told that Opening Procedure by 8-C was the only thing which would actually do anything, really, for this case.

But the case was evidently able, evidently quite able, you see? I mean, the case could do all sorts of things, but the communication lag of the case did not change. Oh, a case could do anything, but the communication lag of the case did not change and there was a lag there, an observable lag, which wasn't altering. And the case could do anything and the case continued to have a psychosomatic—who was kidding who there, huh?

In other words, you say, "Well, what do we do? Do we just go on using this 8-C until this psychosomatic illness disappears or just go on for years using this Opening Procedure by 8-C and so on?" Go ahead. You'll be in better shape than if you go sideways in some direction.

But you can—you can, by the way, oddly enough, get away with this process. It will practically kill somebody who's in that kind of state, but you can get away with the process. It is not a dangerous process, it is merely a violent process. There are two different categories here.

See, there are processes that cause an effect and there are processes that cause results. And there are dangerous processes and there are violent processes. And you should get these things categorized, each one in its own category, because here you're running a process which is just merely—it's an effective process and it's getting results and it's a violent process.

And don't you conceive all of a sudden it must be a dangerous process and pull it off, because what will you give the fellow? You'll give him a violent change. You see, you start processing and all of a sudden you change the process on him and that's a violent change to him. And so you will hang him up in the complete belief that there's a motionless in between any violent change. Any time he gets a violent change, he conceives there's a motionlessness in between them.

Yes, Dick?

Male voice: Could you run a process something like this on it: "Locate a motionlessness in the environment" or "Can you locate a motionlessness in the environment? How's it—how does it seem to you? How does it seem to you now?"

Well, now, that's all right, but you are—yeah, that would be workable, but you are not processing toward truth if you process a motionlessness in the environment.

Male voice: Mm-hm.

You're not processing toward a truth. And just theoretically, I would say we had difficulty, a little bit of difficulty with the process because the individual would look at apparent motionlessnesses and then he'd recognize they weren't and so he would be fishing for something which didn't exist.

He of course could, theoretically, come back and finally find himself—theoretically. Yeah, but he would or he wouldn't.

I, by the way, turned off on somebody, with this, an enormous tiredness—a continual tiredness, just by asking them for times when they were motionless. And all of a sudden they picked right up and cheered right up and they were in much better condition. They stopped being tired just like that, bing

They weren't tired after that, just asking this question of this case about five times. They got about five times when they were motionless. It obviously must have pulled engrams into restimulation, obviously must have done a lot of things, but they didn't care—which is quite interesting.

So the process will work in its simplest form. And we could experiment with it in other lines, in other ways and probably with considerable benefit. That hasn't been experimented with.

Some more questions?

Male voice Where does the time tag get lost on that? Why does it float motionlessly?

Why does it appear to float motionlessly?

Male voice: Why does it float as—where does the time tag go?

Time is change.

Male voice: Yeah.

Time is change.

And when, in the physical universe, you get an individual convinced that he hasn't changed, he doesn't have any time. And you get him convinced there is no change there, doesn't have time.

Well, the oddity is that these times all had change in them and so they apparently... What happens is this, I'll give you the exact mechanic—it floats into present time, alters its location in space and does all sorts of weird things while you're asking him this Straightwire question: "Can you remember another time when you were motionless?"

And he'll remember this several times. And when he's recalled it several times and so forth, it's liable to snap back into its proper position in space and we get the same phenomenon which occurs in 8-D when two universes snap apart. What's happened there? He suddenly recognized that there was motion of some kind or another in it; that there weren't any motionless moments in it; that wherever it was connected with energy, it did have motion in it. And where it was connected with no energy at all, that was just himself as a thetan. So, what's aberrative about it? What is aberrative about it?

By the way, this factor of motionlessness, of course, on a lower scale is apparently, you see, a mockery. It is a mockery of the upper scale, but it is only apparently there. You see, it's only apparently there. It is not there. The lower part of a scale is no/ motionless. There wasn't a time in your life when you were connected with energy when everything was motionless, see, and when that incident was motionless.

An engram which can move around or be moved around is only moving around because of energy mass and no matter how minute the vibration might be, it's still vibrating, there's still mass in it. The moment that you get the cognition there that, "Well, there was mass involved in the thing," but the mass has a tendency just to strip away and the incident will fall back into its proper location. It can't do anything else. That's because you as a thetan, of course, could have an incident anywhere you wanted it. And the most motionless part of anything would be you as a thetan.

People who have died on the operating table and been brought to, think that there was a consecutive and continuous energy manifestation throughout the entire incident, you see. And so they—like this William Dudley—uh, what is his name?

Male voice: Robert Pelley.

Pelley? Pelley. He would go just so far, you see, into that and all of a sudden the motionlessness, which was himself as a thetan, would occur. It was all motion up to that point and at that moment he would find himself completely free. And naturally, he's liable to turn up in almost any universe he ever heard of. And he's liable to be anyplace that he happens to be concentrated on because he, of course, is, himself, really nowhere.

And so he could have a considerable conversation and that sort of thing and when the energy manifestation turned back on again on the body, if he were still connected with it and still believed that that was his position and location, he would of course snap back into the body. But there would be a period there when he was floating free. Well, therefore, the lowest period of an operation is very, very attainable by a thetan.

Now, what's this manifestation, unconsciousness? Well, let's take Pelley. At the moment when total unconsciousness should have been on, we found Pelley completely conscious, see? This, by the way, is not uncommon. That is a very common thing. I mean, you'll, in the course of practicing on thirty, forty preclears, you certainly will discover it once and maybe more often. And they've been afraid to tell anybody about it.

But in other words, instead of going on down, down, down to a point of motionlessness which is intolerable or a point of death which is intolerable by the body and by the thetans instead of going on down to that point—it's kind of a freak here. It goes down, down, down on an energy and pain manifestation, you see—down, down—and then it gets very, very heavy wave—very solid impact sort. And at the moment when that would cease, we would have a terrific peak which would be almost a vertical peak, you see, of consciousness.

And here we suddenly find this individual much more conscious than he'd ever been in life, you see? Zoom! It would go way up here and then it'd come down again at the moment when the energy manifestation turned on again and he'd be down on that lower line and then he'd come up on the other side of it and here you have a terrific moment of consciousness sandwiched in between two heavy masses of only apparently motionless energy.

What is motionless there? The only thing that was motionless was the thetan. And when the energy manifestations were off why, boy, he sure turned on, you see? So there is no unattainable bottom on an engram. See, I mean, there isn't a point of death, below the point, below the point.

As a matter of fact, people then will try to hold the body unconscious. They will try to hold it very still. They will run drills of meditation. They will do all kinds of things in order to get that body—you know, take it—drugs and so forth and get it down to a point where it is sufficiently motionless that then—"Rrrh. We'll be able to exteriorize." Oh no, you don't. They don't ever.

Why? They're processing in the wrong direction. They're trying to hold a mass of energy motionless. Don't ever try it. If you held a mass of energy completely motionless, it would explode. The manifestation of explosion which the thetan experiences in the vicinity of death is quite curious. You know, he dies and boom! The body dies and boom! Well, what happened there is the thetan achieves a motionlessness. Up to that time, being in communication with something which is in constant motion, he himself can conceive himself to have motion.

So, we get people trying to drug themselves free and we get all sorts of weirdities and so on, which are actually supplanted by this process I just gave you.

Female voice: Ron?

Yes?

Female voice: Is it possible that many drug addicts are taking drugs in order to try to exteriorize or…

Possibly.

Female voice: …or possibly because of the death manifestation, the body being still in death —because that's the only way to convince them to get out?

Sure. Well, of course, they could be just dramatizing death, too. But look, anybody who is protesting with drugs against the motion of a body is himself incapable of tolerating motion. And if he's not capable of tolerating motion, how far do you think he's going to go as exteriorized?

Female voice: Oh, well, he isn't but…

He isn't at all. It's…

Female voice: …it's an attempt on their part.

That's right. It's a toleration of motion. But here it isn't a problem in toleration of motion, as we process, it is a problem in toleration of motionlessness. And an individual who can tolerate, really tolerate complete motionlessness is, of course, exteriorized—zoom!

We find people trying to do this by abusing the body, you know, making it sit still. You can always count on somebody who is having a rough time with his case sooner or later coming up with a manifestation that maybe if he just sat perfectly still... That's quite different, you know, than holding on to the two back corners of the room; that's a communication with the physical universe. That's trying to make and hold a communication with the physical universe. But if he just sits still without any such communication, he feels, why, something is liable to happen.

I've had several people invent this as a process. They are inventing a process, so happens, that this—I first know of as having been in existence about, oh, somewhere in the neighborhood of 550 B.C. It is kind of old as a process. Not to have had any more

Theta Clears than we have in present time, I would say the process was relatively unworkable.

Now, there's another— there's another practice in yogi which you might find curious and interesting. Yogi, however you want to look at it, is a cousin to the drills which we do in Scientology. It's a cousin. They do these drills in order to exteriorize. This has never been made very clear. And people try to do yogi by themselves, which is, of course, just like self-auditing.

And yogi texts and that sort of thing say, well, never under any circumstances should you ever work without an instructor. That's what they call them, you see. You just shouldn't work without an instructor—in other words, an auditor. You just shouldn't do this. And it says that all through the text and everybody ignores this and goes on and self-processes. Why? You find people taking up yogi who are tremendously anxious about this sort of thing and that meditation in there, that they've heard of vaguely, is very appealing to them.

Well, all right, but that was still an effort that—by drills—to accomplish an exteriorization. It has the unfortunate part of it that these various meditations and so on have a tendency to, and actually do, pin a guy down as though you had driven spikes through him. See, he can't hold this body down to a point of motionlessness sufficiently adequate to approximate complete motionlessness for this body.

He can't do this because if there's a body there, if there's any mass he's trying to hold down, it's still going to have mass even when it becomes a rock. You see, it's still going to have mass. And he has confused mass with something without any mass because the two are, you might say, harmonics. It's a no-mass thing, it's almost motionless and it's not quite motionless. But that not-quite-motionlessness puts it clear to the bottom of the Tone Scale.

And you start spotting times when a fellow was motionless and you just start asking him Straightwire on this, those times have motion and they observably have motion.

And when they observably have motion and there doesn't seem to be a motionless period in here anyplace, why, we simply—it's himself he is trying to get as motionless. It's not a body he's trying to hold motionless.

Trying to hold a body motionless is practicing control upon it, you see? And that's all these beams and these tractors and pressor beams that these fellows have on their bodies and every once in a while you'll say, "Be three feet back of your head" to somebody—by the way, you didn't say "move." We stopped saying "move" an awful long time ago. You said, "Be three feet back of your head." That means simply "Appear or view from three feet back of your head." All right. You didn't say "move" and every once in a while a person gets that confused. They think they're supposed to move three feet back of the head.

But somebody who is all messed up in energy, you say, "Be three feet back of your head," and you all of a sudden notice him start to pull in his chin, he'll start pulling his chin and body—start to pull back. What's this fellow doing? He's hauling himself out of his body.

Well, he must be taking a large energy mass with him. Therefore, he must have these two forms of motionlessness crossed: motionlessness by reason of having no wavelength or mass; motionlessness by having almost motionless mass. See, two brands of motionlessness here.

Okay. Any more questions on this?

Female voice: Yeah.

Male voice: Go faster on a bracket? Loosen up faster on a bracket?

Times when somebody else has been motionless? Yes.

Female voice: Ron, how would it be to ask a person to position his body three feet in front of him?

To push his body three feet...

Female voice: No, position it there.

Position his body three feet in front of him is also workable. Only you better tell him to push the world three feet in front of him or put the world three feet in front of him or see the world three feet in front of him—anything you want to say.

Female voice: I had an auditor ask me to do that once. It was very interesting.

It was an interesting manifestation, wasn't it?

Female voice: Yeah. I—he wanted me to get it directly in front of me. I had if off to one side.

You know why we use "Be three feet back of your head?"

Female voice: Well, it's no effort to do it?

So that you won't get somebody out that shouldn't be out.

Female voice: Mm-hm.

That is an easier way to get somebody out. That's an easier way. But the people you get out that way, having gotten them out, you will now have difficulty with as a case.

Why? You'll just have difficulty with them, that's all, because that will slip people out much more easily. Now, "Try not to be three feet back of your head" will also get people out. Yeah. But we have gotten people out that we should have drilled a while before we got out, see? They're having some basic difficulty that we should resolve because they're just going to go right back in, bang! And boy, when they go in that next time, now you're going to try to pry them out with a pneumatic drill.

So we use a less easy method. We say, "Be three feet back of your head." Fellow isn't three feet back of his head? We'll work on him until he can be. And then when he comes out and is three feet back—why, fine. Now he has a greater tendency to stay there.

Yes, Frank?

Male voice: Would you care to tie this in a little bit with the lecture the other day in which you discussed the fact that the person who is moving if the one who is guilty? And, for example, it would probably be pretty hot, but if you asked them for times when they were punished for moving.

Nope. No, because you're asking there for motion.

Male voice: Yeah.

You're asking there for motion.

Male voice: Yeah. Yeah, I—I know. But I mean, could you try that a little bit?

That would be too hot.

Male voice: Yeah, that goes…

That's too hot. You don't want an incident, you see, now let's take a look at this again. When you say, "Can you remember a time when you were motionless?" have you just asked this fellow for an incident?

No! Well, this will dawn on your preclear after a while.

Female voice: Probably will start out giving you incidents.

Oh, yeah, yeah. He'll start out giving you incidents and giving you more incidents and he'll have energy masses flying around and gyroscoping and gee-whizzing all over the place. And he'll have a good time with this and he'll finally get to a realization of "There isn't any incident involved in this. Incident? That's something that contains mass, as far as I'm concerned. And what am I doing with this?"

In other words, you're processing straight toward truth—times when he was motionless. You're asking him for times— actually, he will backtrack to and Straightwire to, right back into times when he was perfectly exteriorized and operating bodies from outside and doing fine with it.

The day he started to punish with energy was the day he got into trouble. And he started to punish with energy because he didn't necessarily natively know at all this matter of the perfect duplicate.

What do you want to punish a body with energy for?

You're trying to get rid of the body, aren't you, or you're try—I mean, you're trying to get rid of this person or this object or something of the sort. Well, just be a whole lot of people and make a perfect duplicate of it. It'll disappear.

Female voice: Well, you're trying to punish a body with energy, you're practicing Not-isness, are you not?

Mm. That's Not-isness. That is the definition of Not-isness. When you're trying to shove things around and make them disappear by the use of energy, why…

Female voice: It then becomes more and…

That's right. And it just gets more and more—you're just adding more and more energy to it.

Now, it's—nothing wrong with having a symbol out there.

Let me call your attention to good old Self Analysis—way in that British edition. It's fantastic that this thing used on and on and on and on and on will eventually produce the result.

What are you asking this fellow to do? You're simply asking him to re-create his own universe. You're processing right straight toward truth.

He's outside operating a symbol at some distance from him and you just keep asking him, put more and more symbols up there in front of him and whatever he does with them, you don't care.

But he all of a sudden comes to the recognition, you know, "Hey, you know, I can put a symbol out there."

And at that moment, if he can have a symbol, if he's the creator of symbols, if he can make things, why, then obviously he himself is not— he must be a viewpoint of dimension. And as such then he, of course, can exteriorize, Any other questions on this?

Female voice: The process of unmocking the body would also have the same liability of just getting people out too quickly.

Yes. Yes.

Therefore, we have dropped all processes which—you've just named three or four here. Well, I must know somewhere in the vicinity of a hundred of these.

Well, boy, you can slide people out in all directions. There isn't anybody I've ever seen that I couldn't get out of his head, now, if I really had to. I could dig them out.

And after I got them out they'd be out—maybe they'd be out for half an hour or so. But, boy, when they went back in, now we've got trouble, because this person has been reconvinced by this time that he's just a symbol.

He knows a great truth, now he's a symbol.

What we've done is produce a sudden change and we'll produce an incident which hangs him up. Any time you produce a sudden change on a preclear, why, you put a motionlessness in the middle of the change which is made out of energy. He knows that that motionlessness is there.

Female voice: Hon; about this Take Ten Minutes of Nothing which we…

Very good.

Female voice: But there again in order to get "nothing" one bas to encourage the mobility of the body.

But a person who has gotten out on Taking Ten Minutes of Nothing, when he comes out and sees something, goes back in again.

Female voice: Mm. Uh, see this is all…

I've had that experience several times so we—you haven't heard me mentioning the technique.

Female voice: Mm.

Techniques you haven't heard me mention don't have something wrong with them, they just have less workability than techniques which we're talking about at this time. They have workability, all of them.

Okay. Yes?

Male voice: This technique for remedying unreality that you told us about once where you have the person spot a spot, move his body into it and fix it there forever. He's really—he's really fixing a mass...

Yes.

Male voice: ...in that spot.

It's not a technique which works particularly toward truth.

Male voice: Hm. Well, what if you had an exterior fix himself…

He could do it for hours.

Male voice: Would this be—really…

He'd find out that it wouldn't kill him, this would do him some good. Oh, both of those are very workable drills.

Okay. So much for now.

You understand this technique now, pretty well?

Okay.

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QUESTION AND ANSWER PERIOD

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